The Tragedy of the Athenian Ideal in Thucydides and Plato. John T. Hogan
Чтение книги онлайн.
Читать онлайн книгу The Tragedy of the Athenian Ideal in Thucydides and Plato - John T. Hogan страница 7
![The Tragedy of the Athenian Ideal in Thucydides and Plato - John T. Hogan The Tragedy of the Athenian Ideal in Thucydides and Plato - John T. Hogan Greek Studies: Interdisciplinary Approaches](/cover_pre693237.jpg)
Ξένος (The) Stranger:
πότερον οὖν, καθάπερ ἐν τῷ σοφιστῇ προσηναγκάσαμεν εἶναι τὸ μὴ ὄν, ἐπειδὴ κατὰ τοῦτο διέφυγεν ἡμᾶς ὁ λόγος, οὕτω καὶ νῦν τὸ πλέον αὖ καὶ ἔλαττον μετρητὰ προσαναγκαστέον γίγνεσθαι μὴ πρὸς ἄλληλα μόνον ἀλλὰ καὶ [284ξ] πρὸς τὴν τοῦ μετρίου γένεσιν; οὐ γὰρ δὴ δυνατόν γε οὔτε πολιτικὸν οὔτ᾽ ἄλλον τινὰ τῶν περὶ τὰς πράξεις ἐπιστήμονα ἀναμφισβητήτως γεγονέναι τούτου μὴ συνομολογηθέντος.
Νεώτερος Σωκράτης (The) Younger Socrates:
οὐκοῦν καὶ νῦν ὅτι μάλιστα χρὴ ταὐτὸν ποιεῖν.
Ξένος (The) Stranger:
πλέον, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἔτι τοῦτο τὸ ἔργον ἢ ‘κεῖνο—καίτοι κἀκείνου γε μεμνήμεθα τὸ μῆκος ὅσον ἦν—ἀλλ᾽ ὑποτίθεσθαι μὲν τὸ τοιόνδε περὶ αὐτῶν καὶ μάλα δίκαιον. (284b–284c)
(The) Stranger:
Then, just as with the Sophist we compelled that which is not to be, when the argument escaped us on this point, so now also the greater again and the lesser must be compelled to become measurable not just relative to one another but also to the genesis of measure. For, it is not possible, at least, for either the statesman or any other person to have become without dispute knowing of things concerning actions unless this has been agreed to.
Younger Socrates:
Then now too as much as possible we must do the same thing.
(The) Stranger:
This work, Socrates, is still more than that—and yet we remember the length of that, how great it was, but to set down just such a point concerning them is also very just. (284b–284c)
The Younger Socrates then asks what sort of thing the Stranger means. And the Stranger replies that he will need to explain more fully later but for now the answer is adequately and beautifully shown, that all the arts are in a similar state and our argument says that the “greater and the lesser are at the same time measured not only in relation to one another but also in relation to the coming into being of the mean” (μεῖζόν τε ἅμα καὶ ἔλαττον μετρεῖσθαι μὴ πρὸς ἄλληλα μόνον ἀλλὰ καὶ πρὸς τὴν τοῦ μετρίου γένεσιν, 284d).
This crucial passage in the Statesman explains that what is better and what is worse can arise politically and that we can learn how to measure them. The epistemology derives from the Sophist, to which the Stranger makes a specific reference (“the Sophist” in 284b, cf. Sophist 235). The Stranger’s next step in the argument is to undertake a division between the sciences that rely on mathematics and measure with “number, length, depth, breadth, and thickness” (284e), and those sciences that measure in regard to “the moderate,” “the fitting, and the needful” and all the other standards that are situated in the mean apart from the extremes (284e).38
What is the subject in Plato to which we apply these considerations of the standard of what is moderate, fitting, and needful? It is the character and action we see in human life and our broadly conceived political relations with one another. The analogous word for Thucydides that helps us supply the mean or the moderate is what he calls human nature, or the human, or nature (φύσις, transliterated phusis). He refers to “the human” (τὸ ἀνθρώπινον) in his discussion of his method (1.22.4) and to human nature when he explains the characteristics of stasis (ἕως ἂν ἡ αὐτὴ φύσις ἀνθρώπων ᾖ, “as long as human nature remains the same,” 3.82.2). A number of times important speakers in the speeches he reports refer to “the human” and “human nature,” for example, the Athenian ambassadors at Sparta (1.76.3), Diodotus in his response to Cleon (3.45.7), Hermocrates at the conference at Gela (4.61.5), and the Athenians at Melos (5.105.2). Of course, in the last three instances, the speakers are emphasizing one part of human nature in one degree, but overall Thucydides presents a picture of human nature as something that can be known and characterized