FRIEDMAN: Satan, let me begin by thanking you for your willingness to grant this interview.
SATAN: It’s my pleasure, just as long as you don’t make fun of me. I can’t stand it when people don’t take me seriously.
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Originally conceived for the keynote address at the “Dialogue 94” National Conference of Pastoral Counselors, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, May 1994.
You mean like C. S. Lewis or George Bernard Shaw?
On the contrary; they captured my spirit completely, unlike that Job fellow. You know, he still doesn’t accept the fact that I exist.
Why should that bother you?
You’re right. I used to think I could throw people off course only if they believed in me; now I find it works better if they deny my existence completely.
I’d like to start with a rather simple question. I’ve always wondered why you began with Eve. Why didn’t you go straight to Adam and give him the fruit yourself?
That is not such a simple question. I really didn’t expect her to give it to him. That’s precisely what I was afraid she would do.
You were using paradox?
Yes, but I was new at it. I had yet to refine my technique. The outcome was the exact opposite of what I expected; why would I have wanted them to know the difference between good and evil?
Go on.
I could see right from “the beginning” —the second version is correct, by the way — they were created simultaneously — that the male of this species was not going to be the more aggressive one. Frankly, Adam was passive as hell. He would have stayed in that Garden till the end of time. Eve, on the other hand, had fire in her, desire, a sense of adventure, curiosity. And I realized if I was going to have to choose between an eternal struggle with this new species or absolute boredom forever, I’d better choose the former. Besides, the Creator wanted it that way.
He was using you?
If you must know, unlike some of the other gods, such as Mars or Venus or Neptune, this One makes life very difficult for himself. He wants his creatures to grow.
Then there are other gods?
Not in this universe. They all originally trained here and then went on to create their own worlds. Like Elohim they created their creatures in their own image. The difference was in the problem of reproduction. In Venus’s world everyone loves all the time; in Mars’s world they are perpetually at war. But Elohim wanted to try something different. The Creator saw himself as a God of individuation, of differentiation, of process; life was always to be in the act of becoming; the creatures might even be seen as co-creators. The problem was you can’t clone differentiation no matter how well differentiated the primary copy. Every parent knows that. So the critical component in the plan was that life was always to be challenging, and the secret to the process of becoming was in a creature’s response to challenge.
Then you were really working for the Creator. That must have been before the Fall.
Actually, I slipped.
Right into the choir, I understand.
But to get back to your original question — why I gave advice to Eve rather than going directly to Adam — I knew I would never be able to stop the Creator’s overall plan, but I thought I might really be able to frustrate it, if I could screw up relationships.
So you created the first marital triangle?
Exactly. Why, if I had gone directly to Adam, or had dealt with Eve one on one, they both might have started dealing with one another in very mature ways. But I saw that if somehow I could get all caught up in their relationship, I might keep them stuck forever. And I am proud to say that most counselors have followed in my footsteps ever since.
I’m not sure I’ll include that comment in the final version.
Anyway, the outcome was more than I could have hoped for. Each one immediately started to blame rather than take responsibility for their own response. I couldn’t believe it. All either one would have had to do was take a stand, any well-defined position on what they believed, own it, and I’d have been out of there. I’d have lost all my influence.
They were both only-children.
No. No. It was much deeper than that. I sensed immediately that it would show up everywhere, almost as though it were a natural part of their basic makeup, a flaw in creation, perhaps. Only-children have no monopoly on immaturity. But the exciting thing was I now knew the key to retarding the evolution of the entire species. Something that would work no matter what the age, the gender, the race, or the ethnic background.
You seem to be suggesting that if there were some original sin that has been transmitted down through the generations, it was not an act of disobedience, which, after all, could also be seen as an act of differentiation, but their response after they had disobeyed.
You got it.
Aren’t you afraid to tell me this? I mean, if the truth got out, things might swing against you.
Are you kidding? The failure of humans to take responsibility for their own emotional being and destiny is so much a part of their heritage that I can’t imagine how their simply knowing it would change things.
But that’s precisely what most counselors are engaged in doing. Trying to make people aware, giving them advice, pointing out their mistakes.
My best ploys.
Wait a minute, are you saying that you try to retard the evolution of the human species by tempting the helping professions into trying to help?
I do have to admit that sometimes when I am absolutely drenched in the self-sacrifice all around me, I get to thinking maybe the Holy One put troubled people on earth in order to give the good people something to do, but it’s a bit more complicated than that. Actually, I have a whole series of maneuvers, and I have to be resilient enough to adapt to the age, but, basically, I always work in the same direction.
What’s that?
To prevent people from reaching the essential position that is at the beginning of any mature religious philosophy.
Namely?
I will not make my salvation dependent on the functioning of others. And that works two ways. It means not using other people as the way to one’s own salvation, and it means not saving other people as the way to one’s own salvation.
That almost sounds like a philosophy of parenting.
Of course; they’re congruent. That’s why I keep parents all focused on the child instead of on themselves, getting caught up in issues like what’s the right method, who’s got the best statistical data, what’s the right proportion of leniency
