Committee): I should like to ask upon that whether the case of Daniel O’Connell was not a case of absolute refusal by the Member to take the oath required by law? – I think the best way will be, perhaps, to read the precedent from this paper, and then any inference can be drawn from it. It is at page 5. “Precedent of Member refusing to take the Oath of Supremacy; Daniel O’Connell, Esq., professing the Roman Catholic religion, returned knight of the shire for the county of Clare, being introduced in the usual manner, for the purpose of taking his seat, produced at the table a certificate of his having been sworn before two of the deputies appointed by the Lord Stewart, whereupon the Clerk tendered to him the Oaths of Allegiance, Supremacy, and Abjuration; upon which Mr. O’Connell stated that he was ready to take the Oaths of Allegiance and Abjuration, but that he could not take the Oath of Supremacy, and claimed the privilege of being allowed to take the oath set forth in the Act passed in the present Session of Parliament ‘for the relief of His Majesty’s Roman Catholic subjects’; whereupon the Clerk having stated the matter to Mr. Speaker, Mr. Speaker informed Mr. O’Connell that, according to his interpretation of the law, it was incumbent upon Mr. O’Connell to take the Oaths of Allegiance, Supremacy and Abjuration, and that the provisions of the new act applied only to Members returned after the commencement of the said Act, except in so far as regarded the repeal of the declaration against transubstantiation; And that Mr. O’Connell must withdraw unless he were prepared to take the Oaths of Allegiance, Supremacy, and Abjuration. Whereupon Mr. O’Connell withdrew. Motion, That Mr. O’Connell be called back and heard at the table. Debate arising, a Member stated that he was requested by Mr. O’Connell to desire that he might be heard. Debate adjourned. Resolved, That Mr. O’Connell, the Member for Clare, be heard at the bar, by himself, his counsel or agents, in respect of his claim to sit and vote in Parliament without taking the Oath of Supremacy. Mr. O’Connell was called in and heard accordingly: and being withdrawn; Resolved, That it is the opinion of this House that Mr. O’Connell, having been returned a Member of this House before the commencement of the Act passed in this Session of Parliament ‘for the relief of His Majesty’s Roman Catholic subjects,’ is not entitled to sit or vote in this House unless he first take the Oath of Supremacy. Ordered, That Mr. O’Connell do attend the House this day, and that Mr. Speaker do then communicate to him the said resolution, and ask him whether he will take the Oath of Supremacy. And the House being informed that Mr. O’Connell attended at the door, he was called to the Bar, and Mr. Speaker communicated to him the resolution of the House of yesterday, and the order thereon, as followeth.” Then the resolution and the order are repeated. “And then Mr. Speaker, pursuant to the said order, asked Mr. O’Connell whether he would take the said Oath of Supremacy? Whereupon Mr. O’Connell requested to see the said Oath, which being shown to him accordingly, Mr. O’Connell stated that the said Oath contained one proposition which he knew to be false, and another proposition which he believed to be untrue; and that he therefore refused to take the said Oath of Supremacy. And then Mr. O’Connell was directed to withdraw, and he withdrew accordingly;” and then a new writ was ordered.
24. Mr. John Bright: Were those oaths separate oaths? – Yes, they were three separate oaths.
25. And they require three separate acts in taking them? – Yes.
26. Mr. Attorney General: I think the result is that the House first determined that the Oath of Supremacy which ought to be taken by Mr. O’Connell was the old oath, and not the oath under the Catholic Relief Act? – Clearly.
27. And having determined that it was the old oath that required to be taken, Mr. O’Connell refused to take it? – Certainly.
28. Mr. Bradlaugh (through the Committee): Have you searched for any precedent affecting the taking of the oath by a Member alleged to be disqualified or ineligible; has your attention been called to the case of John Horne Tooke, in Volume 35 of Parliamentary History, in the year 1801, commencing at page 956? – Not in respect of any question relating to oaths: it is not amongst these precedents.
29. As a fact, was Mr. John Horne Tooke’s capacity to sit in the House challenged in this case? – Yes, as being in Holy Orders, but not in relation to any question of taking the oath.
30. The next question that I have to ask is whether your attention has been called to the case of the alleged ineligibility of Francis Bacon, the King’s Attorney General, in 1614, cited in the Commons Journal, Volume I., pp. 459 and 460? – No, my attention has not been directed to any questions of incapacity: it has been confined to questions arising out of the taking of the oaths prescribed by law.
31. There is one other question that I should like to ask, and that is whether your attention has been called to any case in which the House has discussed and dealt with the election of a Member, before that Committee was sworn? – With regard to the Jews, that would apply to Baron Rothschild and to Alderman Salomons.
32. I do not mean a case of a Member refusing to be sworn, but a case in which the House has dealt with the election before the Member had been sworn; has your attention been called to that? – No.
33. There is one case, the case of John Wilkes; the cases of O’Donovan Rossa and Mitchell were cases of legal disability; has your attention been called to any case in which the House has dealt with the election of a Member before he was sworn except for statutory disability? – Sir John Leedes sat in the House without having taken the Oath, and therefore he had clearly vacated his seat, and a new writ was issued.
34. I mean a case in which the Member has not been sworn, and in which there has been a discussion upon his eligibility outside the precedents which you have handed in; I refer to the case of John Wilkes, which is to be found in 38 Commons Journals, p. 977, and Cavendish’s Parliamentary Debates, Volume I., extending over many hundred pages, commencing at 827. May I ask Sir Erskine May whether the practice has not been that when a Member appears to take the Oaths within the limited time, all other business is immediately to cease and not to be resumed until he has sworn and has subscribed the roll? – That was the old practice, but it has been superseded by a recent Standing Order under the Parliamentary Oaths Act of 1866, and the rule is now different; Members can be sworn until the commencement of public business and afterwards; but no debate or business may be interrupted for that purpose.
35. That is not quite the question that I wish to put; the question that I wish to put is whether it is not now and has not always been the practice of the House that within a limited time, whatever that time may be, if a Member appears to take the oaths all other business is immediately to cease and not to be resumed until he has been sworn and has subscribed the Roll? – That was the old practice, when the oaths were required to be taken before four o’clock, but it has since been altered. This is the present Standing Order under which the oaths are administered, and this order was made in pursuance of the Parliamentary Oaths Act of 1866: “That Members may take and subscribe the Oath required by law at any time during the sitting of the House before the Orders of the Day and Notices of Motions have been entered upon, or after they have been disposed of, but no debate or business shall be interrupted for that purpose.”
36. Then I again repeat my question, whether the practice has not been that a Member so appearing under the Standing Order just read to take the oath, all other business is immediately to cease and not to be resumed until he has been sworn and has subscribed the Roll? – I have already stated that such was the old practice, which has been distinctly and specifically superseded by the last Standing Order, which is now in force.
37. Is that the Standing Order which you have just read? – Yes, that is the Standing Order now in force.
38. Of course it will be a matter for argument whether it has altered it or not, but is there any other Order altering this practice except the one which you have just read? – There is no other Standing Order, and that Standing Order was made, as I have already stated, in pursuance of the Parliamentary Oaths Act of 1866, which authorised the House to make regulations with regard to the swearing of Members.
39. But
